Autor Wątek: Bug/Błąd: Derailed for apparently no reason  (Przeczytany 695 razy)

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Offline Angelo

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Derailed for apparently no reason
« dnia: 20 Listopada 2020, 12:17:33 »
Hi,

I just derailed for apparently no reason in Piaskowo.
A couple of days ago a friend of mine derailed in Arkadia, on the ES line - not for overspeeding, we checked that.
In both cases, TD2 just said "something went wrong".

Here are the screens from today. I hope they can somewhat help to diagnose the problem, so that it won't happen to other unlucky players in the future.

Bye  :)
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline Argeos

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #1 dnia: 20 Listopada 2020, 12:25:18 »
In new version of TD2, there are points for no-power driving and you have to set loco power ("nastawnik jazdy") to 0. We8 and We9 markers are applicable.
https://td2.info.pl/dyskusje/jazda-bezpradowa-wykolejenie
« Ostatnia zmiana: 20 Listopada 2020, 12:29:57 wysłana przez Argeos »

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #2 dnia: 20 Listopada 2020, 14:19:39 »
(Tl;dr: ok, now I see it was my bad, but isn't this exaggerated?)


I see. Thank you.
I usually only reduce the power when passing under those points, I know it's not correct but what are 50A going to do.

This time I was slightly late and I was accelerating at 600A, keeping my eyes on the ammeter and glancing at the tracks. Only now, looking at the screen, I realize that signal was not a backwards We9a as I thought, which is placed some 100-200m before the We8 for trains in my direction, but rather it was the We9a for my direction, meaning I already passed the backwards We9a and, most importantly, the We8 for my direction.
So, I can now see my fault in this.
Also, when someone in the chat asked for We8, I thought he wanted to type W8, which does make a lot of sense in that context - and the E is near the W in a QWERTY keyboard. I now checked this great page from the TD2 Wiki aaand I learned something today.

Now, isn't this a little... excessive? In real life, what would happen if a train driver ignored such signals and behaved (badly) like me?
I don't know why these signals are needed in the first place, since in Italy we don't have anything like that. We do have similar signals for trams, though, and when drivers ignore them you see a huge spark from the pantograph. Fun stuff!
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline tlkhetman

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #3 dnia: 20 Listopada 2020, 22:01:13 »
Ciao!

Non parlo inglese, invece lo so, che capirai italiano.  ;)

Puoi spendere nelle impostazioni.  :D  In practica può essere cortocircuito elettrico. In Italia questo non c`è, perchè ci sono l'altre possibilità tecniche.

A presto in simulatore!  :)

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #4 dnia: 20 Listopada 2020, 23:18:42 »
Ciao! Grazie mille  :D
"Gra", poi "Usterki lokomotyw", giusto?

Ora provo in polacco  :-X
Witam! Dziekuje bardzo!
"Gra", po "Usterki lokomotyw"?
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline tlkhetman

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #5 dnia: 21 Listopada 2020, 00:29:55 »
Ciao! Grazie mille  :D
"Gra", poi "Usterki lokomotyw", giusto?

Ora provo in polacco  :-X
Witam! Dziekuje bardzo!
"Gra", po "Usterki lokomotyw"?


 Si.

Ustawienia-Gra-Usterki lokomotyw.  ;)
« Ostatnia zmiana: 21 Listopada 2020, 10:20:43 wysłana przez tlkhetman »

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #6 dnia: 21 Listopada 2020, 12:41:47 »
Dziekuje!
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline tlkhetman

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #7 dnia: 21 Listopada 2020, 13:13:50 »
Nessun problema!  :)

Offline FluffyArmchairAdmiral

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #8 dnia: 23 Listopada 2020, 17:37:09 »
(Tl;dr: ok, now I see it was my bad, but isn't this exaggerated?)


I see. Thank you.
I usually only reduce the power when passing under those points, I know it's not correct but what are 50A going to do.

This time I was slightly late and I was accelerating at 600A, keeping my eyes on the ammeter and glancing at the tracks. Only now, looking at the screen, I realize that signal was not a backwards We9a as I thought, which is placed some 100-200m before the We8 for trains in my direction, but rather it was the We9a for my direction, meaning I already passed the backwards We9a and, most importantly, the We8 for my direction.
So, I can now see my fault in this.
Also, when someone in the chat asked for We8, I thought he wanted to type W8, which does make a lot of sense in that context - and the E is near the W in a QWERTY keyboard. I now checked this great page from the TD2 Wiki aaand I learned something today.

Now, isn't this a little... excessive? In real life, what would happen if a train driver ignored such signals and behaved (badly) like me?
I don't know why these signals are needed in the first place, since in Italy we don't have anything like that. We do have similar signals for trams, though, and when drivers ignore them you see a huge spark from the pantograph. Fun stuff!

Old Polish electric locomotives doesn't have automatic system to disconnect power, not to mention that tracks are not equipped with such system as well. Those signals are used where 2 pieces of electric cable meet, just to make it simple, if you keep using power you could either damage electric substations or fry circuits in your loco.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 23 Listopada 2020, 18:12:37 wysłana przez FluffyArmchairAdmiral »

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #9 dnia: 23 Listopada 2020, 23:09:52 »
I would love to know why in PKP you can't keep absorbing current while going from one substation to another, whilst in FS you can.

What bad things can happen if a train driver, while on the PLK network, passes a We8 at 600A? Ok, you're talking about locomotive and substation damage, but what exactly? Aren't both of them protected? And anyway, what would fry your loco, since you always have your 3 kV in the wires, albeit not constant and this voltage can change a little when going between substations?
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline FluffyArmchairAdmiral

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #10 dnia: 24 Listopada 2020, 08:39:15 »
It's because power lines are divided into sections. Those sections in are connected to two substation each (on either end) or at least they should. On top of that electric cable is connected to positive pole in electric substation and rails are connected to negative pole. Power flows from the cable through locomotive to the rails. When you go through part where sections change there is a small device on the power cable called section isolator that effectively connects two pieces of the cable. Old type was made of ceramic material and it was not effective in suppressing electric bow that may happen if locomotive is going through it while drawing power. That electric bow may lead to damage of isolator itself and unpredictable voltage rise that may damage your locomotive or electric substation connected to that section. Newer ones are a bit more effective in that matter but if things go wrong electric bow may still occur.

In some countries there are safety systems that will disconnect line connctors in your loco automatically but from what I know in Poland there is no such thing at least not in older locomotives. Not sure about new ones.
« Ostatnia zmiana: 24 Listopada 2020, 16:13:43 wysłana przez FluffyArmchairAdmiral »

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #11 dnia: 24 Listopada 2020, 11:02:14 »
When you go through part where sections change there is a small device on the power cable called section isolator that effectively connects two pieces of the cable. Old type was made of ceramic material and it was not effective in suppressing electric bow that may happen if locomotive is going through it while drawing power.

Wait: what kind of insulator are we talking about?

Here are the two I'm familiar with:






The first one divides the two sections abruptly, while the second one is more... smooth.
Here where I live, the first system is only used in stations, on tracks were the speed is usually 30 km/h, and it is relatively rare nowadays. The second one is often used just for mechanical reasons, and the two sections are electrically connected.

I've seen some sparks on the first one, but never on the second one which, in Italy, is completely ignored by the drivers.


Now, in Poland you have very similar devices, and if I understand correctly the first one is sometimes used where trains run.
What I don't understand is why you need to cut off the power under the second kind of insulation device. I also don't completely understand how it works, since for some time the pantograph will connect the two sections, although the voltage between the two is usually similar.
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline FluffyArmchairAdmiral

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #12 dnia: 24 Listopada 2020, 14:20:48 »
That's exactly the device I'm talking about. Each set of stations is balanced slightly differend and voltage is not always exactly the same, if you directly connect those sections with your panthograph while drawing power it will create short circuit or draw an arc.

Old ones always give you a spark even without throttle as you still draw some power for converter and compressor. They used to break alot and their servicing is expensive not to mention that it led to malfunctions caused by electric bow. If you draw 600A going through them arc will be stronger because of electric charge difference at the end of each cable.

The reason why you don't see any sparks in new ones is because they got both cables fully enclosed and there's a vacuum chamber that prevents electric bow. That is only if they're not mechanically damaged. With those situation is even worse. If the air get's into the chamber because of crack, arc that will be drawn inside might create too much pressure and it may do a bit more mess.

And finally two sections that are connected by running two power lines in parallel as in example of section on your screenshots, both wires should technically be far enough to not draw an arc, but if one line is giving you 2800V and other 3200V that sudden jump at moment when you draw power from both of them is enough to cause issues. Voltage jump might be high enough to damage the substation, pantograph or trip surge protection inside the locomotive providing they'll work fast enough to protect any equipment from damage.

Also drivers don't ignore it, as I said in some countries the process of disconnecting and re-connecting large power draw will be done automatically regardless of throttle setting. I know it works like that in UK that even if rules also advise drivers to stop drawing power, automatic system will do the job for them anyway.
http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/neutral.shtm

PS: Almost forgot, technically it is also advised to turn off heating as it draws power from the High Voltage circuit.
 
« Ostatnia zmiana: 24 Listopada 2020, 17:40:12 wysłana przez FluffyArmchairAdmiral »

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #13 dnia: Wczoraj o 00:58:33 »
That's exactly the device I'm talking about. Each set of stations is balanced slightly differend and voltage is not always exactly the same, if you directly connect those sections with your panthograph while drawing power it will create short circuit or draw an arc.
Shouldn't this happen even if you have the pantograph raised but the main circuit breaker open?

Cytuj
if one line is giving you 2800V and other 3200V that sudden jump at moment when you draw power from both of them is enough to cause issues. Voltage jump might be high enough to damage the substation, pantograph or trip surge protection inside the locomotive providing they'll work fast enough to protect any equipment from damage.
That is what I really can't understand. How could the current suddenly rising (and, consequently, the voltage dropping) damage a substation? Is it about inductance or something similar?
About the locomotive, isn't going from 2,8 to 3,2 kV similar to going, say, from series to parallel for a motor? I mean, in both cases you get a fast change in current and voltage.

Cytuj
Also drivers don't ignore it, as I said in some countries the process of disconnecting and re-connecting large power draw will be done automatically regardless of throttle setting. I know it works like that in UK that even if rules also advise drivers to stop drawing power, automatic system will do the job for them anyway.
I asked to a couple of friend to be sure, and I can say that in Italy we don't have anything like this. A friend - who is very knowledgeable about railroad technics - said that it is a good thing to not draw something like 1500A, but there are no particular rules.
Also, I am sure that we don't have any automatic system that disconnects the power. In fact, until the early 2000s, most of our railway network only interacted with trains through the rails and the overhead wires, with nothing else - not even safety systems, except for the most important lines.
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline FluffyArmchairAdmiral

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Odp: Derailed for apparently no reason
« Odpowiedź #14 dnia: Wczoraj o 21:00:42 »
That's exactly the device I'm talking about. Each set of stations is balanced slightly differend and voltage is not always exactly the same, if you directly connect those sections with your panthograph while drawing power it will create short circuit or draw an arc.
Shouldn't this happen even if you have the pantograph raised but the main circuit breaker open?

If you draw very little power needed just for converter and compressor arc that you'll draw will be much less severe and dangerous. Both substations and your locomotive's circuits should be fine. That's why you'll always see an arc on old isolators if the pantograph is raised. Also construction materials are a factor too. Poland used to be isolated from the west for quite a long time and very high quality materials were sparse. Old locomotives will be more sensitive to those high power changes while newer ones might be perfectly fine. Same goes to electrical grid and devices. I'm not electrical engineer and that stuff is not thoroughly explained anywhere I can find, so those are just my assumptions.