Autor Wątek: Talk/Rozmowa: Questions of a beginner  (Przeczytany 3975 razy)

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Offline Calleman

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Questions of a beginner
« dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 00:09:58 »
Hi! And how wonderful it is to be part of this amazing community :)
I've been driving a little bit online for the past two day, preceeded by onther 5 evenings just understanding all the buttons and levers in single player mode.

As a newbie, some questions have come to my mind, but I can't seem to get any information, therefor I ask them here instead.

When driving a passenger train online, quite often on the routes there a multiple minor stops that aren't regulated by signal. I must say I have som difficulty trying to match my speed and breaking time to acctually stop at those stations (probably most becuase I'm staring myself blind on the next allowed speed, which I really don't want to miss...). Is there any signs to look out for to know that a station is upp in 1 km or any other distance?

While driving a freight train in the single player mode, I seem to have a little bit of problem understanding the brake system. If i put the brake in 1-position it brakes, but takes a while to fill and get effect. Nothing strange, but when I release the break, it seems to take forever to release the preassure from the system, i.e. the train comes to an halt. I do put it in R-position and press the KEYPAD6 to quicker release the break, but still it take ages for it to discontinue the breaking. What are your thoughts on how to operate the breaks like a pro? Going quick to 1 and the back to N so the break system is not filled so much, or what?

Looking forward to your ideas and answers!

Offline Pepsi2026

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #1 dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 00:25:25 »
Hi! And how wonderful it is to be part of this amazing community :)
I've been driving a little bit online for the past two day, preceeded by onther 5 evenings just understanding all the buttons and levers in single player mode.

When driving a passenger train online, quite often on the routes there a multiple minor stops that aren't regulated by signal. I must say I have som difficulty trying to match my speed and breaking time to acctually stop at those stations (probably most becuase I'm staring myself blind on the next allowed speed, which I really don't want to miss...). Is there any signs to look out for to know that a station is upp in 1 km or any other distance?

Hi! There is a W 16 indicator at the braking distance in front of the railway stop. Picture below.


Offline DJ_Tomek

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #2 dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 01:05:36 »
Examples given: one track / two track's


The braking distance is reduced with the speed of the route.

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #3 dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 11:50:47 »
Hi!

The brake control on EU06, EU/EP07, EP08 and ET41 has the following positions (*):
N) neutral;
1) charge (the brake pipe);
2) march (of the train);
3) start of gradual braking;
4) sector of service, gradual braking;
4a) max. gradual braking;
5) fast braking.

Consider that positions 3, 4 and 4a are actually a sector, and inside this sector the braking force is gradually increased the more you pull the lever towards you.

Since you managed to brake and not kill yourself, I suppose you don't need any explanation on most of this positions  :)
So let's get to the unbraking part.

The N position is used only when the cab is not used. This position isolates the brake control from the brake pipe.
If you drive with the brake in the N position, the best that can happen is that leaks in the braking system will brake some cars. The worse is that you won't be able to brake, at all. So, never, never drive in position N.

The position 2 must be used always when the train is running. It will set the brake pipe to 0.5 MPa, which is the minimum pressure at which the brakes are released.
You can use this position to unbrake your train, but you will have to consider that the longer the train, the more time it takes for the brake pipe in the last carriages to get to 0.5 MPa, and also, since this pressure is barely enough to release the brakes, each wagon will release them slowly.

If you need to unbrake fast, you may use the position 1. This will send 0.54 MPa in the brake pipe, plus, but only for a few seconds, a high pressure impulse (should be 0.7 MPa if I remember correctly).
This will make the brake pipe go higher than 0.5 MPa in the last cars in less time, and each car will unbrake faster.

Position 1 looks so good that you might forget about position 2, right? But if you keep in position 1 for too long, then position 1 will act like position 2, and position 2 will brake a little bit your train. In real life this can be solved only halting the train and walking through all of it, manually releasing the brakes on each car, and then going back to the cab and charging the brakes for 180 seconds. You may want to avoid this.



* I don't know the actual English names, but since the FV4a is also used in Italy I'll translate the position names from Italian, which I found on an official instruction.
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline KoenigDain

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #4 dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 22:19:29 »
Hi,

the trick is also to look ahead very carefully when driving heavy freight trains, and to adjust the speed according to any restrictions coming up. I also tend to start braking with the loco brakes very early (often 1,5km away or even earlier) using Num-7 and Num-1. The locos brakes are obviously not nearly as powerful as the train brakes, but they react a lot faster, giving you much needed fine control. This is especially usefull when eg. braking from 100km/h to 80km/h, or when braking in to stop at a signal. With the train brakes you may either brake too much or the brakes take too long to apply, causing you to overshoot. This happens a lot easier if you used the mentioned "fast-release" position, overloading the braking system.

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #5 dnia: 25 Maja 2020, 22:44:58 »
Man u made nice fail. Num 1/7 are for independent breake. It is breake for loco only. It is good to control speed of train going downhill (aplly breaking for loco to prevent speeding) but it is not designed for stopping entire train. Use main break! Num4 is drive position, Num2 break, Num9 less break power (after Num4 it is strike release), Num3 is break harder. Num0 is emergency break. Using main break force all cars in train to break, not only one in front. Independent break is good for controling speed, slowing down a little but never should be used for stop train.

Offline Sistonami

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #6 dnia: 26 Maja 2020, 00:49:12 »
As someone correctly pointed out, Independent (loko) brake should not be used to brake down an entire train, unless it's a very limited usage. Some examples:
You see a yellow blinking signal and you're travelling at 100 kilometers per hour = you MUST use train brake to slow down
You are stopping at platform and you want to make a smooth stop by putting train brake to N in the last moments. You see train now not braking enough but you are very close to stop = you SHOULD use train brake, but a little application of independent brake can be tolerated.
You are stopped in station and you want to depart as soon the signal clears = you release train brakes and keep the train steady with Independent brake.

If you are a LUZ (just a locomotive with no cars attached) you can use the independent brake to do everything.
Hope this helps.

Please note that what i wrote does not apply for EZT (like EN57 or similar)
(with freight trains use the Fast-Release position R to overcharge the brake and release it faster)
« Ostatnia zmiana: 30 Maja 2020, 11:24:43 wysłana przez Sistonami »

Offline KoenigDain

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #7 dnia: 29 Maja 2020, 21:43:46 »
Well, the rules may be like that. But then the question must be asked: are all polish brakes in the real world working like in the game? The responsiveness even with personnel trains (UIC-wagons) is abysmal at times. Not even talking about freight trains. Even with only 5 cargo wagons, the brakes take ages to respond. If it is like that in real polish trains too, then props to all polish train conductors. If it is not - there is my justification for using the independent brake for fine control  :P

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #8 dnia: 29 Maja 2020, 22:16:34 »
Tried different simulator, break were responding better, it was much easier to feel it. Especially release mechanics seems to be little bit bad (too long). Also notice that EN-57 and other EZT has Knorr breaking system, locos has Oerlikon. It works different. Mind that long freights (500m+) are half kilometer long. Quite lot and it must take some time to pump cars break tank plus main pipe.

Sistonami I'm not sure about that LUZ in Poland could use independent breake as main. In US it is even advised to use it for stopping engine. Train breake is self applying on failure. Thats very important to automatic stop train if something bad happen.

Offline kojonek2

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #9 dnia: 30 Maja 2020, 09:59:04 »
Tried different simulator, break were responding better, it was much easier to feel it. Especially release mechanics seems to be little bit bad (too long). Also notice that EN-57 and other EZT has Knorr breaking system, locos has Oerlikon.

Interesting because in our simulator both EN57 and EU07 use Oerlikon brake valves. EN57 uses FVel6 and EU07 FV4a.

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #10 dnia: 30 Maja 2020, 11:26:53 »
(...) if you keep in position 1 for too long, then position 1 will act like position 2, and position 2 will brake a little bit your train. In real life this can be solved only halting the train and walking through all of it, manually releasing the brakes on each car, and then going back to the cab and charging the brakes for 180 seconds. You may want to avoid this.


Errata corrige:

In theory, this would be true: the reference pressure in the wagons would be set to 0.54 MPa and so the train should brake when the brake pipe is set at 0.5 MPa. But...

The engineers weren't stupid and so isn't the FV4a. When the brake is in the 2nd position (the one normally kept whilst driving), if the pressure is above 0.5 MPa, air comes out through a calibrated hole, which makes that air noise you hear when you go from 1st to second position. This sets the pressure in the brake pipe from 0.54 to 0.5, but it is slow enough that brakes don't trigger.

So, why have I mentioned that problem?
With FV4a I don't think it's easy to make it happen, but in general setting the brake pipe to high pressures, especially at 0.7 MPa, can lead to all those problems that I listed. I heard a story of a shunting terminal where the shunting drivers always send 7 bar in the pipe and then the train drivers need to go through all the train. Fun stuff.

But anyway, if you keep the FV4a in the 1st position, you still have a problem: this position will act as the 2nd would normally do, and so you would lose the possibility to unbrake fast; that is because the wagons now "believe" that 0.54 is the normal pressure.


Am I pedantic? Well, it is quite likely!  :P


Cytuj
Tried different simulator, break were responding better, it was much easier to feel it. Especially release mechanics seems to be little bit bad (too long). Also notice that EN-57 and other EZT has Knorr breaking system, locos has Oerlikon. It works different. Mind that long freights (500m+) are half kilometer long. Quite lot and it must take some time to pump cars break tank plus main pipe.
To me, TD2 looks fine when talking about brake behaviour. The only thing that makes it hard to control to me is that I have to use the keyboard, which is not designed for driving trains. But I'm just talking about impressions.

Cytuj
Sistonami I'm not sure about that LUZ in Poland could use independent breake as main. In US it is even advised to use it for stopping engine. Train breake is self applying on failure. Thats very important to automatic stop train if something bad happen.
I don't know about the pneumatic circuits in Polish locomotives, nor I'm an expert in PKP regulations, but I can talk from what I know about Italian locomotives (which shouldn't be that different from the rest of Europe, right?): the loco has the brake pipe, as any wagon does, which goes to the connected wagons, the two brake levers in the cabs, a valve of the safety system, and the triple valve.
The latter is connected to the direct brake pipe; this pipe is connected also to the two direct brake levers in the cabs, and to the brake cylinders.

We can have special systems (G/P brake, high speed brake, etc.), but that is what you can find on almost every locomotive.
So, is there a difference between using the train brake or the direct brake? No. You're always just applying pressure to the direct brake pipe, but if you use the train brake lever you're going through the triple valve.
What happens if this pipe brakes? The same that happens if the brake cylinders lose air.

Remember that the main reason we're so worried about the brake pipe breaking is that part of it is made out of rubber pipes and metal joints going from one car to the other. It's so easy for it to break.
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.

Offline Sistonami

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #11 dnia: 30 Maja 2020, 11:36:31 »
Sadly i have no experience in driving real polish trains, so i cannot say if the behavior it's 100% realistic.
For my experience i can tell that:
- Cargo trains and passenger ones have very different braking timings also in reality, and generally speaking Cargo trains have limited braking power.
- Using the fast-release position (R) that releases the brakes by over-charging the brake pipe is useful (especially on long trains) BUT there are some rules to be followed in using that position, otherwise there is a risk of having the rear cars stuck in braking position. I dont think this behavior is simulated for obvious reasons, but anyway i have to say that i like TD2 Brake dynamics more than nearly all other simulators available. I find it quite close to the Italian brake behavior of old trains.

It would be nice to hear the comment of someone who is familiar with the real brake behavior of polish trains...How does he find the TD2 brake dynamics?

Offline Calleman

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #12 dnia: 31 Maja 2020, 22:32:29 »
Hi!

The brake control on EU06, EU/EP07, EP08 and ET41 has the following positions (*):
N) neutral;
1) charge (the brake pipe);
2) march (of the train);
3) start of gradual braking;
4) sector of service, gradual braking;
4a) max. gradual braking;
5) fast braking.

Consider that positions 3, 4 and 4a are actually a sector, and inside this sector the braking force is gradually increased the more you pull the lever towards you.

Since you managed to brake and not kill yourself, I suppose you don't need any explanation on most of this positions  :)
So let's get to the unbraking part.

The N position is used only when the cab is not used. This position isolates the brake control from the brake pipe.
If you drive with the brake in the N position, the best that can happen is that leaks in the braking system will brake some cars. The worse is that you won't be able to brake, at all. So, never, never drive in position N.

The position 2 must be used always when the train is running. It will set the brake pipe to 0.5 MPa, which is the minimum pressure at which the brakes are released.
You can use this position to unbrake your train, but you will have to consider that the longer the train, the more time it takes for the brake pipe in the last carriages to get to 0.5 MPa, and also, since this pressure is barely enough to release the brakes, each wagon will release them slowly.

If you need to unbrake fast, you may use the position 1. This will send 0.54 MPa in the brake pipe, plus, but only for a few seconds, a high pressure impulse (should be 0.7 MPa if I remember correctly).
This will make the brake pipe go higher than 0.5 MPa in the last cars in less time, and each car will unbrake faster.

Position 1 looks so good that you might forget about position 2, right? But if you keep in position 1 for too long, then position 1 will act like position 2, and position 2 will brake a little bit your train. In real life this can be solved only halting the train and walking through all of it, manually releasing the brakes on each car, and then going back to the cab and charging the brakes for 180 seconds. You may want to avoid this.



* I don't know the actual English names, but since the FV4a is also used in Italy I'll translate the position names from Italian, which I found on an official instruction.

Hi Angelo,

thank you for your swift reply, but it got me quite confused, so I'll give more details to see if I understood you right.

Current I'm running the ET41. I do have the HUD on and have also read the instuctions on the wiki. But I'm not sure about your positions. I have (and a description to how I have have interperated that they work)

C - Cutoff from system/out of use/other cabin governing the brakes
R - Fast flush the system
N - Driving postion - fills the system to 0,5
1 - Prebrake
2-5 Braking
E - Emergency braking.

By following you instructions it seems like I should not drive on the N rather on 1  (as I think is prebraking). Did I missunderstood you in your post?

Thank you! :)

Offline Angelo

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Odp: Questions of a beginner
« Odpowiedź #13 dnia: 01 Czerwca 2020, 11:40:17 »
Hi,

Since I don't use the HUD in TD2 (I think it breaks the immersion), I didn't know how TD2 names the positions.
Anyway, according to those positions, you should drive in N, and to release fast you can use position R for a while.

Then, it's normal that it takes a while to brake and unbrake. If I have a long train and I need to slow down from, say, 100 to 50 km/h, at 70 I'm already unbraking a bit.

I don't understand what is the difference between position 1 and 2 to 5. They should be the sector that I called 3, 4, 4a.
Sorry, the only Polish words I understand are "witam" and "kolej" :)
I'm learning some Polish train-related words. Please be patient if sometimes I ask to speak in English.